משנה מסכת אבות - Mishnah Pirkei Avot
א:יד הוא (הלל) היה אומר, אם אין אני לי, מי לי; וכשאני לעצמי, מה אני; ואם לא עכשיו, אימתיי.
א:יד הוא (הלל) היה אומר, אם אין אני לי, מי לי; וכשאני לעצמי, מה אני; ואם לא עכשיו, אימתיי.
ה:ט ארבע מדות באדם, האומר שלי שלי ושלך שלך, זו מדה בינונית, ויש אומרים זו מדת סדום. שלי שלך ושלך שלי עם הארץ. שלי שלך ושלך שלך חסיד. שלי שלי ושלך שלי רשע.
Four characteristics of people: the one that says (1) 'Mine is mine, and yours is yours', this is the character of an average person, and some say this is the character of Sodom. (2) 'Mine is yours, and yours is mine', an ignorant person. (3) 'Mine is yours and yours is yours', a pious person [a person marked by lovingkindness]. (4) 'Mine is mine and yours is mine', a wicked person.
What do you think about these quotes? Do you agree or disagree? Do the two quotes agree with each other or not?
These quotes seem to be saying opposite things of each other. The first one, from Hillel, is saying it is crucial to take care of yourself before anyone else. “if I am not for myself, who will be for me?” For example, if you are in an airplane and air masks drop down, you should put yours on first so you are able to help other people. I really agree with this point. Although it is nice when people do little things to take care of you, there is no guarantee that someone will, so we have to take care of ourselves. If we are suffering, we can’t really help anyone else.
ReplyDeleteThe quote then goes on to say “if I am only for myself, what am I?” indicating it is not alright to just help yourself, you also have to help other people. In the scenario above, when the oxygen masks drop down, AFTER you put yours on you then have to help others.
The quote below contradicts it by saying the best thing you can do is give unconditionally, and it is evil to take without giving anything back. I agree that it is bad to take without ever giving back, but if all you ever do is give this is also bad. Its like you need to always be in power, be the one helping- it is almost humbling to allow other people to help you. That way we can all help each other as equals and there is no power dynamic. Although we will never all be equals, everyone will experience times when they need help and times when they can help.
I agree with Talia about Rabbi Hillel's quote that it is important for one to make sure their needs are fulfilled before they help anyone else but after that, it is just as important to help others.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the anonymous quote all together which claims that if a person believes that "mine is yours and yours is mine" is an ignorant person. It just means that that person is willing to have a healthy give and take relationship which really doesn't mean they are ignorant. Especially if this decision was meticulous. And that a person who says "mine is yours and yours is yours" is pious. A person who believes this may be generous but is also foolish. To be a self-respecting person, one must not be so compliant that they let other's have whatever they want from them.
I do, however agree that the person who says that "what's your is mine and what's mine is mine" is wicked. They are selfish and don't deserve much. And I agree that these are definitely the four main characteristics in the world.
Genya #1
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of what Hillel and Talia said, in response to Samara's comment, a person who says "mine is yours and yours is mine" isn't necessarily a person who is willing to be in a healthy give and take relationship, but rather is someone who always wants the items of others and is willing to sacrifice his item for he sees them as inferior. This person can be viewed as ignorant since they are ignorant of the value of their items and only see value in what isn't theirs. Also someone who says "mine is yours and yours is yours" can not be a pious person since the Torah says you must look to your needs before the needs of others and if you give yours away then you are looking after the needs of others before yours and by doing so, sinning.
Comment #3: In response to Talia, I think that Rabbi Hillel's quote is not contradicting itself because it is saying that first and foremost you should take care of yourself and in the example you gave that would be putting your own mask on before helping someone else. It is then saying that if you don't help others then what kind of a person are you which in my opinion means that if you don't help someone after you put your mask on then what kind of a person are you? I also think that phrasing the question by saying what instead of who leads me to think that what has a bad connotation to it since what refers to an object and we are talking about humans.
ReplyDeleteI think the second quote addresses everyones concern and problems. If someone is in a situation, the second quote will solve their problem. The second quote implies to me that people mind their own business, people are careless, people are too generous, or people who take advantage which applies to every situation.
I agree with Hillel because I think that you should always take care of yourself first and then others but I think that most people forget to help others so I agree with Hillel but I think that we should all remember to help others.
Natasha 2
ReplyDeleteI think the anonymous text has made very accurate observations about people. Many people I see in our modern world fit into one of these four categories, and the rabbi’s assessment of the different people (if they are good, if they are ignorant, the idea of Sodom) is also true.
The rabbi’s ‘ideal’ is a person who takes nothing, but gives everything. They say that someone who follows ‘mine is yours and yours is yours’ is saintly and pious. I don’t think being as perfectly good as the rabbi’s example is possible. Practically, it is hard to live when you care for others before yourself, and mentally, is difficult to never get a reward for your work, as I think this person would find.
When Hillel asks ‘what am I?’ we can perceive it as ‘what does that make me?’ I think Hillel’s idea of self vs. other is the one we should try to imitate. It is imperative to care for ourselves, but who we are is defined by how we treat others.
Perri #4
ReplyDeleteI half way disagree with Natasha when she discussed the anonymous quote saying, "Many people I see in our modern world fit into one of these four categories." Yes, people in general do have ways of acting that lean towards one of these four classifications but i believe that it is not completely black and white. Sometimes, depending on current mental states, people will act differently then normal. For instance, one who usually fits in with the category "what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours" may be having an extremely good week because they got engaged and feel a desire to just be extremely giving and temporarily fit into the category of "Whats mine is yours and what's yours is yours". What i am mainly saying is that I think there can be grey area too because people are rarely constant.
When comparing the two quotes, it has been made clear by the previous posters that the Hillel believes one should take care themselves before taking care the other, although the anonymous quote believes that taking care of others before yourself is what's saintly. My opinion on which idea we should follow further drives my point home on how things are not black or white, but there is always grey area. I believe that each way of living depends on the situation. Following the same lines as Talia's plane example, let's take a therapist for instance. They need to have a strong sense of self before they they help others. Same with high school; kids who are confident in themselves are able to help build up some one else's self esteem, while putting others down shows insecurities in themselves. On the other hand, when it comes to ones who are more unfortunate than you, it is a good thing to care for them first. Like in the pizza text, if the homeless person is starving while you are just having cravings, helping the other is what's kinder. Also, once you help others, they will then be more inclined to help you. "What's yours is mine and what's mine is yours".
Michael #4
ReplyDeleteIt starts off with Hillel saying that if I am not for myself then who is for me. With that he is saying that if I do not take care of myself then who will and out of all of the different views we see in both passages I think this is the most important one. It is not being selfish because its not talking about how you treat other people but for me it is just saying that you should always make sure you take care of yourself because no one will do it for you. In the next passage it talks about different ways of acting. There first one is mine to mine which is what an average person would do. You live your life, I live mine and we don’t affect each other. I think that this way peace is made but there is no progress in your relationship with the person and you are stuck on neutral ground, because you cannot gain anything by sharing with the other person. The next line says what’s mine is yours and yours is mine. This seems very ignorant to me because a person like this would just go around taking other peoples things for free, stealing in some peoples perspective so this person has no idea of personal property. However the next line says what’s mine is yours and what’s yours is yours. This line is the opposite from the previous and is talking about a nice person who doesn’t take but mostly gives which I think is a good quality in a person. The last one says mine is mine and yours is mine which is just a straight up greedy person who takes and never gives.
I also agree with Perri Davis that not all people can be fit into the categories. Of course there are a lot of people that can and there are also a lot of people that that cannot take care of them so they wouldn’t even fit into Hillel’s category of taking care of oneself. This text gives us very broad and common categories of human behavior that do not necessarily fit everyone.
#2
ReplyDelete@ Boris: Talia isn't saying the first part is contradicting itself, she is saying that the first part contradicts the second part.
@ Talia: The post describes having the mindset of "what's mine is yours and what's yours is yours" is saintly. The definition of saintly is marked by utter benignity; resembling or befitting an angel or saint. True, it's not healthy for a person, but that's what a saint is; someone who will do anything for other people even if it means harming themselves.
@ Samara, it is ignorant to say "What's mine is yours and what's yours is mine." The reason it is ignorant is that the world can't function like that. If you have that mindset, and that's how you try to live your life, you are ignorant to how the world works.
I agree with both. I do think that you should help yourself and then help others, like Hillel said. That is what the average person should do. But a saint would say "what's yours is yours and what's mine is yours". For the avergae person, if they h ad $1.50, they should feed themselves first. But if they have $3, they should buy both themselves and the homeless person a piece. However the saint would feed the homeless person whether or not it directly interferes with his own feeding, that's what makes him a saint.
comment #3
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hillel's response. I believe that you should take care of your personal well being because you do not respect yourself you cannot expect that anyone will respect you. I think that you should take care of yourself but not only think about yourself because if you only think of yourself what kind of person does that make you? If you cut in the front of the line at Petes because you have to catch your bus, what does that say about your character? Why are you entitled to the front of the line? What kind of morals do you have? These are some of the questions that should be thought about when thinking of only yourself.
The second text contains 4 characteristics, each with a different way of living being analyzed. The first one shows a person who is out for them selves and expects everyone else to be as well. The rabbis say this is the behavior of your every day Jo, and some others believe that this state of mind led to Sodom being wicked. The second describes on who give all they have and take all they want, mine is yours, yours is mine. He is cast aside as an ignorant person by the scholars. The 3rd line speaks of a pious person; on that expects you to have what you have but he will also give to you all that he has, since he cares not for worldly materiel. The final one speaks of a wicked person, one that keeps what he has and takes all of what you have.
ReplyDeleteThe first approach seems logical enough, you have what you have and that’s it, and you don’t expect help from others since they will be thinking the same thing. You will not give the guy your buck fifty because it’s yours. However this caring for only yourself can lead to behavior with terrible communal interactions, like Sodom.
When I read yours is mine and mine is yours, the first thing that shoots into my head is mother Russia. That is the definition of communism; “You produce as much as you can, and take all you need.” The people with less needs will be able to counter those with more needs and we will live in Utopia. Great until people realize some don’t work as hard and get more, so the system breaks. Those that take too much and give too little are the reason this breaks. However if the theory that everyone gives all they have and take all you have (their need) this will reach the highest form a people cant get , according to Marx.
Third is the best example of a man according to the text. He is kind and a God following man, it says. He, in Buddhist terms, has reached nirvana and knows that he will not get anything from you but he will give anyway.
The last one is what the world doesn’t need a selfish taker.
Post #3
ReplyDeleteI seem to agree with Dilara's answer in that Hillel states that one should definately take care of themselves first and foremost because if you are not taking care of yourself, then why should you expect someone else to take care of you? " He (Hillel) would say: If I am not for myself who [will be] for me? And if I am [only] for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel provides us with a glimpse into the reality of life. If you do not show respect and care towards yourself then no one in return will show respect and care towards you. But this also translates into if i do not care for others then who am i as a human being? These characteristics of humans established by Hillel and possibly other Rabbi's are not intended to be taken into their full literal meaning but are rather left for self interpretation and "food for thought". Going back to what Dilara said, i agree in that just because you are running late to school or work, does not mean that you have the authority to put your morals in question by cutting ahead of a few other sleepy heads in the morning. Although you are taking care of yourself, it does not mean that you are caring for others; something the Rabbi's do not accept.
#3
ReplyDeleteI want to bring up the point about Hillel's last line of his comment: "If not now, when?". I think that this line means that in a normal situation, when a person is asked for charity or is going to give charity, they will tell themselves that they will do it later, but then blow it off altogether. In a perfect world, people would not be this lazy, and give charity when it is the right time, without any hesitation. I think what Hillel is trying to establish here is that people need to open their eyes and get past their inhibitions. He is saying that people should help others (or yourself, for that matter)all the time, not just when it is convenient to you.
I very much agree with Natasha, in many ways. One of which is that the anonymous text shows us the couple very factual ways people give and receive. This text is just simply showing us different overviews of how people interact one with the other, and is showing certain options that may obtain to us. In my opinion, this text is more fit for my life because, like Natasha said “it is hard to live when you care for others before yourself, and mentally, is difficult to never get a reward for your work, as I think this person would find.” I completely agree with this statement, because maybe what you want for yourself, is for someone else to be happy, which could go both ways (Hillel, and the anonymous text), and I soppose Hillel’s words are the ideal way to treat yourself and others, but the second text seems to me, like some sort of observation of how we, as people interact.
ReplyDelete#2
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hillel’s quote saying, “He (Hillel) would say: If I am not for myself who [will be] for me?” This quote is saying the, you have to be confident and believe in yourself because if you don’t have self-confidence no one will respect you. For example if you walk around not in control of your surroundings, people can take advantage and even hurt you. I also agree with Hillel’s statement, “if I am [only] for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?” This quote is saying if you only think of yourself you are not even human, but instead some kind of monster. It is very unhealthy to go through the world only thinking of yourself. Hillel also says there are 4 types of people. Average people who think what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours. There are ignorant people who believe what’s mine is yours, and what’s yours is mine'. A saintly person thinks what’s mine is yours and what’s yours is yours. An evil person thinks what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine. I agree with the opinion of the average man because I personally only have enough to support myself and expect other people to support themselves as well. I don’t agree with any of the statements because they either think too much about the other person or too little. It is bad to think too much of the other person because then you do not think enough about yourself.
#2
ReplyDeleteIn response to the second, anonymous text i would say that they are excellent and very observant and well articulated example of the way people tend to act at time. However, i think that many of us have a dose of each kind of person in us and it is our job to fight the ignorance and wickedness in all of us and aim towards to ways of the saintly person. I don't think that it is possible to be fully one person or the other. Instead it is each person individually that must choose which path they must aim towards. Otherwise these are good models for ways to behave in society. It is always good to have models for saintly and wicked citizens to look at for examples of what to do and not do.
Comment #2
ReplyDeleteI agree with all the quotes above said by Hillel. Saying “If I am not for myself who [will be] for me?” is the reality of life. If you don’t take care of yourself and prove others that you’re a strong person no one will take you seriously and no one will respect you. ”And if I am [only] for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?” meaning if you only care about yourself and no others what will you be? Saying that you’re a thing if you only care about yourself. And that you should take care of yourself now and not hesitate.
I also agree with all the four characteristics, I believe that each of us belongs to one category. I think a lot of us fit in to the fist category 'Mine is mine, and yours is yours' at least at this age. We take care of our things and we don’t really mind how others around us manage to take care of their needs. I also think throughout life time we move up and down these categories, I don’t think we can remain in one category forever. At some points in our life time we will want to take everything and not give back any thanks. But I feel like when you get older you want to help others but you don’t need the help from the receiver. We really cant label ourselves I belong to a certain category. I think in life we will go to every category and experience it.
Post # 6 In regards to the first quote I think that it is saying that you need a balance between ego and taking care of your self. “If I am not for my self, who am I?” If you don’t take care of your self you can’t expect anyone to help you. “If I am only for myself, what am I?” If I only take care about myself then I am no better than an object. So the point is that we have both and we need to learn to have a balance. The last line is saying that you shouldn’t wait for things to happen for you, you should make them happen.
ReplyDeleteShoshana #3. I agree with Talia as she unpacked Hillel’s quote. To reiterate, if one does not take care of them self who will take care of them for them? This quote can also mean, or be explained like this: if one does not have respect for themselves how can they expect anyone else to have respect for them? The answer to this is no one, no one can take care of you if you are not going to take care of yourself, and no one will respect you, if you do not respect yourself. Hillel goes on to say, that if one is only for them self what are they? By his words, you can tell that Hillel really frowns upon people who are only for them self, meaning they only care about what they need, how they can help them self, and what is good for them. Using Talia’s example of the plane with air masks, the second person Hillel is describing is the person who will quickly put on their air mask but will not than help anyone else. Hillel says, “what” is this person implying that this person isn’t even human, that it is not human to be that self-centered. He’s saying if I am only for myself what does that make me? I could be no different then a hippo. For example say there is a line at Starbucks and I was only thinking about myself and how I was late for my conference not about all the other people in line who might be trying to catch a plane, or bring coffee to a sick loved one. Hillel says that someone who is only for themselves is not different that a hippo barging to the front of the line at Starbucks with no regards towards the other ten people in line. When I tried to compare this quote to the anonymous one that explains four different characteristics of a person there is no direct correlation of this person that Hillel is describing. The Rabbi’s say that the person who says, “mine is yours, and yours is yours” is a pious person marked by loving-kindness. But this person does not care for them self as Hillel says is necessary, this person is the one on the plane who helps everyone else with their air masks and than dies. With this in mind the question that I have is when does it stop being righteous to give all your belongings to others and instead become ignorant? There is no clear explanation to me in the anonymous quote that shows me how this righteous person who gives everything away is different to an ignorant person. I agree with Michael here, if a person does not take care of them self how are they going to be able to take care of others, if a person lets people take all of their things how can they survive? A person who is the third characteristic of man is only a pious person if they can take care of them self a least a little bit by having the self respect to know what they need. If the third characteristic was less extreme than it would be ideal, the ideal person is one who can take care of them self with as little means as possible, while being happy, and than use the rest of their time and energy to care for others and help others. But is this a practical person? Is there a person who can survive on such little and give to others with nothing in return and still be happy? The point that I am trying to make is “with nothing in return.” Yes people can live on very little and give their things to others as easily as they can buy a late, but if they do not care for them self at all how can they be happy, and how can they survive by always only giving?
ReplyDeleteJeffrey #3
ReplyDeleteI agree with Talia when she said that if you can’t help yourself then who can help you. With the oxygen mask in the airplane example, when you help yourself to put on the oxygen mask you are in a position where you could help other people. If you help others before you help yourself it is good, but you are in a position where you pass out and become useless. A more extreme example is if you and a person are under a pile of rubble and you have no water and you can’t get out, you need to free yourself before anyone else. If you don’t get yourself out you can’t really make any significant changes. I agree with Gabe that you shouldn’t help others when it is convenient, but all the time. It is like saying that I will do homework when I want to, not that I have to. I agree with Natasha that this is an overview of people, of how different people behave and think. I agree with Faina when she says that the first text is a way to treat yourself and others, and the second text is showing an overview of how people behave.
Post #3
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ruth regarding the first two when she wrote, "...the point is that we have both and we need to learn to have a balance." All of these quotes exist and we encounter them at some points in our lives but the what can make someone just, is for them to find the middle ground on all of these quotes. Ancient German scholar, Plato states: ““Moderation, which consists in an indifference about little things, and in a prudent and well-proportioned zeal about things of importance, can proceed from nothing but true knowledge, which has its foundation in self-acquaintance.” I think this relates to the quotes above because when you take and react to these quotes in moderation or the middle ground you can find true understanding