Please contribute your thoughts here. Some jumping off questions:
- We talked about 'Relative Morality'- if everyone does something that is generally regarded as 'wrong' or 'illegal' (cheating on your taxes; driving 70 MPH in a 65 MPH zone), does that make it right?
- Aden brought up the point that he wouldn't download music from a poor musician, but it would be OK to do it from someone who was already rich. Do you agree or disagree with this?
- Could something be illegal, but still be moral? What about something that might be immoral but is legal?
#7 Bonus #1
ReplyDeleteI do not believe if everybody does one think it is therefore right. If 80 percent of California's population committed murder tomorrow that would not make it right. It would just mean California has a huge murder problem that needs to be attended to. Just like how many people are illegally downloading music, the music industry and laws should be looked at again to rethink this problem. I am not comfortable stealing from a rich or made musician rather than a poor musician. Where is the line drawn? If you make less than 30 grand a year I will buy your album? Which leads us to our second problem. We don not actually know how rich/poor the musicians we buy albums from are. We can guess but we nay not be right. Underground musicians may come from wealthy families and wealthy musicians may have most of their profits taken from their record company.
To the last question there are many things that people consider moral but is illegal. For example, gay marriage is illegal from many states in the US even though I find it moral. The government for any country does not have and never will have a perfect moral compass that fits all of its citizens' moral codes.
Bonus #4 Post # 10
ReplyDeleteIn reference to "Relative Morality", I do not believe that this is ok in any situation, incident or way. Just because everyone is doing something as a group or movement does not make it ok, referring back to the example of the CD printing business where all of the workers were out of a job. With many thanks to the technology of the 21st century, allowing us to download songs illegally via internet, these people are now sitting at home without being able to live happily. As im sure many of us have heard the saying “if your friends all go to jump off a bridge, are you going to as well because they all are?". This exemplifies how great movements seem to believe that something is ok or accepted when it is truly against the law or just plain wrong. Although a majority may be doing something that is regarded to as "wrong" or "illegal" does not make it right, or legal in any circumstance. As Aden brought up today in class, he does not see the point in buying a song belonging to a musician who is well off, but would much rather contribute to one who is part of the underground and is up and coming. I cannot say that I completely agree because this rich musician may suddenly loose all of his/ her profits if everyone suddenly starts to download music illegally. But to contradict myself, these artists will always see some sort of revenue. Every time their song is played on the radio or on a satellite channel, they are paid a certain fee; ultimately leaving them well off over time. I do not believe that something can be illegal and moral at the same time, if this would and could be possible then a great population of the jails in the world would be partially empty.
http://sonomacountygazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/scattering-ashes-moral-but-illegal.html
In this article in the Sonoma County Gazette, we are introduced to a blogger who is interested in dispersing a loved one’s ashes. Although this may be completely fine and accepted by the family and others grieving, it is against several county and state laws, making it illegal. Without a permit and a boat, there is no way to do this legally.
In reference to "Relative Morality", I do not believe that this is ok in any situation, incident or way. Just because everyone is doing something as a group or movement does not make it ok, referring back to the example of the CD printing business where all of the workers were out of a job. With many thanks to the technology of the 21st century, allowing us to download songs illegally via internet, these people are now sitting at home without being able to live happily. As im sure many of us have heard the saying “if your friends all go to jump off a bridge, are you going to as well because they all are?". This exemplifies how great movements seem to believe that something is ok or accepted when it is truly against the law or just plain wrong. Although a majority may be doing something that is regarded to as "wrong" or "illegal" does not make it right, or legal in any circumstance. As Aden brought up today in class, he does not see the point in buying a song belonging to a musician who is well off, but would much rather contribute to one who is part of the underground and is up and coming. I cannot say that I completely agree because this rich musician may suddenly loose all of his/ her profits if everyone suddenly starts to download music illegally. But to contradict myself, these artists will always see some sort of revenue. Every time their song is played on the radio or on a satellite channel, they are paid a certain fee; ultimately leaving them well off over time. I do not believe that something can be illegal and moral at the same time, if this would and could be possible then a great population of the jails in the world would be partially empty.
ReplyDeletehttp://sonomacountygazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/scattering-ashes-moral-but-illegal.html
In this article in the Sonoma County Gazette, we are introduced to a blogger who is interested in dispersing a loved one’s ashes. Although this may be completely fine and accepted by the family and others grieving, it is against several county and state laws, making it illegal. Without a permit and a boat, there is no way to do this legally.
In reference to "Relative Morality", I do not believe that this is ok in any situation, incident or way. Just because everyone is doing something as a group or movement does not make it ok, referring back to the example of the CD printing business where all of the workers were out of a job. With many thanks to the technology of the 21st century, allowing us to download songs illegally via internet, these people are now sitting at home without being able to live happily. As im sure many of us have heard the saying “if your friends all go to jump off a bridge, are you going to as well because they all are?". This exemplifies how great movements seem to believe that something is ok or accepted when it is truly against the law or just plain wrong. Although a majority may be doing something that is regarded to as "wrong" or "illegal" does not make it right, or legal in any circumstance. As Aden brought up today in class, he does not see the point in buying a song belonging to a musician who is well off, but would much rather contribute to one who is part of the underground and is up and coming. I cannot say that I completely agree because this rich musician may suddenly loose all of his/ her profits if everyone suddenly starts to download music illegally. But to contradict myself, these artists will always see some sort of revenue. Every time their song is played on the radio or on a satellite channel, they are paid a certain fee; ultimately leaving them well off over time. I do not believe that something can be illegal and moral at the same time, if this would and could be possible then a great population of the jails in the world would be partially empty.
ReplyDeletehttp://sonomacountygazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/scattering-ashes-moral-but-illegal.html
In this article in the Sonoma County Gazette, we are introduced to a blogger who is interested in dispersing a loved one’s ashes. Although this may be completely fine and accepted by the family and others grieving, it is against several county and state laws, making it illegal. Without a permit and a boat, there is no way to do this legally.
i agree with ari but only to a certain extent. i believe that if it is illegal and is unreasonable then it is not okay to do. one example i would like to bring up is driving on the freeway. if the speed limit says 65 then i believe that it is okay to drive 70 but no more. as you can see this is reasonable unlike the point that ari said with 80% of the people committing murder. also if you are driving 70 in a 65 miles an hour zone you cannot get a ticket because if a policeman does give you a ticket you can just take it to court and easily revoke it. one thing i want people to know is not to change the law to 70 miles an hour but keep it at 65. if government saw that everyone was going 70 (which they are) and they were to change the law to 70 then everyone would start going 75 because they would use the same logic but at certain point it only gets dangerous. i believe that if there is a law it does apply to everyone and everyone should or shouldn't break it based on how serious it is. the example that aden gave with only illegally downloading for people that have money is not right. i think that it should be optional to the person that is downloading it. i believe that there can be things that are moral and still illegal. the example i will give is rosa parks. what she did was technically against the law but it was the right thing to do because she was standing up for her race. i can't think of anything that is legal and immoral but i am sure there is some law that right now might be thought of moral but later in time will be considered immoral.
ReplyDelete(Levin-#3) I Agree with Aden. If I know for a fact that a musician is rich i would download the music because he/she doesn't necessarily need the money However if i don't know for a fact that the musician is rich or i know that he/she is poor I would buy the song from iTunes or Amazon, or a music store because the musician needs the money. I am also more inclined to download the poorer musician's music because he/she needs the money.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of "relative morality," if a bunch of people commit identity fraud it doesn't make it right. Then we would just have a bunch of people with 2 or 3 or more identities walking around and not knowing who's who.
I believe that it is morally correct to download the music freely if the artist does not need your support. But if the artist is struggling to be successful and needs to get their name out, you should buy their music to help them. To add to what I said during class yesterday, I also believe that if the artist is doing fine economically, then instead of buying their music, you should maybe buy a tee shirt or theirs, or a sticker to get their name out. Also, in the case where you do not have enough money to buy their music, and you have only enough money for your necessities, it never hurts to tell people about them, and recommend buying their music.
ReplyDeleteJeffrey #2
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ari that if everyone does something wrong it is not considered right even if you do it. I agree with Jonathan in that even if people download music illegally from an artist, the artist still makes money off the radio station which means they still make money. I would say it is more correct to download music from a rich person because they already made their money and will live well, rather than a poor person who just beginning his career and needs the money to keep going. Things can be moral, and illegal and immoral but legal. Cheating on a test is immoral but legal, and when someone is pregnant and you are driving them to the hospital you run red lights is illegal but it is moral. Another thing that is illegal but moral is stealing food to feed your family.
Genya #6
ReplyDeleteI don't think if everyone does something it is right, however I think if everyone does something it makes it socially acceptable. Though it may be illegal to download music, and it is probably immoral since whoever gets money from your purchase does work in some way for that money, I still think because everyone does it the penalty on it should be less severe than a crime of similar magnitude that not everyone commits. Personally I hate Itunes because if you buy say a movie from Itunes it's very hard to do anything with that movie, other than watch it from Itunes, which is immoral on the part of Itunes, so therefore I don't feel that it is immoral for people to download it, especially if they are too lazy to go get it some other way.
Can something be legal and immoral? Or moral but illegal? Sure like someone mentioned above, gay marriage is illegal but it is moral, from my oppinion. And taking a child away from its parents because there's a small bump that could be potentially from a hit, or from running into a wall, as kids do, on its head is immoral but legal. With laws like that can one really trust the morality of his law system?
I will fully and happily admit that I download things illegally. I recently downloaded a video game illegally because I already had the game on another system. When I buy a game I am not buying the physical disc, I am buying the ability to play the game. If I already had it on another system, I have the right to it on every system. This applies to what Goody said about having it on Netflix but still buying it on Amazon. If he already paid for access to the movie he should have the right to the movie, end of story. I also download music illegally because Itunes and Apple are corrupt and will screw you over. For example, I bought several cd's on itunes back when I still used it. Now that I stopped using itunes, there is no way for me to keep that music because of a little thing called DRM. DRM stands for digital rights management, and basically says that the digital property isn't really yours, the company is just letting you use it, and still has control over whatever it is. So the only way for me to have the music I bought with my money is to pirate them. here is a comic that illustrates what I'm saying http://xkcd.com/488/.
ReplyDelete@ Nikita: There are tons of things that are legal and immoral, like flamethrowers. Yup, there is not a single law against owning or using flamethrowers. Here is a list of a bunch of things that should be illegal but aren't (please excuse the swearing). http://www.cracked.com/article_17016_7-items-you-wont-believe-are-actually-legal.html
@ Genya: You are over simplifying the situation, nobody is going to take away your child without more evidence than a mere "bump".
Danny Robinow Post #6
ReplyDeleteTo address the recent inquiries on whether some can be moral yet illegal or legal yet immoral, I have a few suggestions for us to consider. First, simply a general statement about Judaism and our duties as Jews: Judaism is a religion based on morals, and striving to have a good moral and ethical value system in which we do what is right to aid ourselves and those around us in the betterment of society. While this is true and is something we can all acknowledge, something was brought to my attention, and maybe some of yours as well, that there is a law in the Talmud that states something along the lines of “The law of the land is the law,” meaning that albeit we are Jewish and observant of some level of our moral obligation, we do reside in a place where there is legislation and rules set out to better the non-Jewish society that we must follow and consider to be the law in addition to Talmud. It is up to us to determine where the Talmud will give leeway for the residential law system to take over, and the way in which we balance this dictates the decisions we make in our Jewish and even non-Jewish lives. For example, there is a piece of legislation that has recently made the ballot in San Francisco banning circumcision of males below the age of 18. If this miraculously is passed by the voters of our city (knock on wood) we will find ourselves in a situation where we have to make a decision to either follow the law of the land and go against our religion or go against the law of the land and keep to a sacred religious custom of the Jewish people. It is unlikely this law will be passed, and even if it is passed I am positive Rabbi Goodman will have some high up law man in a chokehold until the legislation is thrown in the garbage. Regardless, this is an example of how something can be illegal yet moral, and I think that most of us would recognize how morality supersedes legality in this dilemma.
Danny Robinow Post #6
ReplyDeleteTo address the recent inquiries on whether some can be moral yet illegal or legal yet immoral, I have a few suggestions for us to consider. First, simply a general statement about Judaism and our duties as Jews: Judaism is a religion based on morals, and striving to have a good moral and ethical value system in which we do what is right to aid ourselves and those around us in the betterment of society. While this is true and is something we can all acknowledge, something was brought to my attention, and maybe some of yours as well, that there is a law in the Talmud that states something along the lines of “The law of the land is the law,” meaning that albeit we are Jewish and observant of some level of our moral obligation, we do reside in a place where there is legislation and rules set out to better the non-Jewish society that we must follow and consider to be the law in addition to Talmud. It is up to us to determine where the Talmud will give leeway for the residential law system to take over, and the way in which we balance this dictates the decisions we make in our Jewish and even non-Jewish lives. For example, there is a piece of legislation that has recently made the ballot in San Francisco banning circumcision of males below the age of 18. If this miraculously is passed by the voters of our city (knock on wood) we will find ourselves in a situation where we have to make a decision to either follow the law of the land and go against our religion or go against the law of the land and keep to a sacred religious custom of the Jewish people. It is unlikely this law will be passed, and even if it is passed I am positive Rabbi Goodman will have some high up law man in a chokehold until the legislation is thrown in the garbage. Regardless, this is an example of how something can be illegal yet moral, and I think that most of us would recognize how morality supersedes legality in this dilemma.
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ReplyDelete#7 (Bonus #1)
ReplyDeleteI believe that sharing music from friend to friend, or from person to person is okay. If that facet in which I share or receive music is through file sharing sites, then so be it. If it wasn't okay, then why does Apple allow and promote burning CD's to share with friends, if it is bad? It is the same scenario in which I go to a friends house to watch a show on their TV. I am using there TV for myself, but I didn't buy the TV, or the cable service, but is that wrong? I also believe that there will always be a group of people who still pay for their music, so anyone who has a fear of the musician going under, doesn't have to worry. The reason they will always pay is because some people will always find it wrong, because they believe that this is stealing and any kind of stealing is wrong. Also, it may be because some people like higher quality items, like someone buying a designer outfit instead of one from a department store.
Perri #8 Bonus
ReplyDeleteYou have to abide the law although if it does not correspond with your moral compass or what you honestly believe is morally true, then just because its legal or illegal doesn’t make it morally right or wrong. Morality is subjective and although this causes conflict in the world, this is still the harsh truth and will always exist. In the Civil War, the Southerners felt that it was truly wrong for the Blacks slaves to have equal rights, yet from the Northerner’s point of view, this was extremely immoral and the Blacks should not be denied their equal rights with the whites. So, if everyone follows their own moral compass, meaning sometimes it causes them to break a law they disagree with or believe is morally wrong (such as the point brought up of gay marriage) then whats the point of laws? To answer this question, I’d say that that is why our freedom is so important, we have the right to freedom and the moral obligation (especially in America) to try to create change that better corresponds with our moral views.
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ReplyDeleteGary Shumakher’s #5
ReplyDeleteI believe that downloading music illegally is a crime very easy to get away with, but is still immoral. Even though a high percentage of people have downloaded a song illegally at least once, I believe the agreement that “everyone is doing it” does not apply. When you download a song illegally, you take the money away from the artist that worked hard to make that song. I don’t think it matters how much money the artist has, every artist deserves to be paid for the music they make. If everyone started downloading music illegally, no artist would make money. I found an article on the Washington Post, which wrote that more than 20,000 lawsuits were filed against music fans in the years since they started finding free tunes online rather than buying CDs from record companies. This article proves that downloading music illegally is still illegal and not everyone gets away with this crime. When you download music illegally, you steal from the artist and the record company.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/28/AR2007122800693.html
#6
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Ari's origonal comment. an illegal act is illegal regardless of who and how many people are doing it with out consequences. I agree with what Perri added to that which was that one's own moral compass is irrelevent regardless of whether or not it is in line with what it legal or illegal.
I also agree with the other part of Ari's comment and i think he brought up a good point which was that it is nearly impossible to really know for certain or at all what the financial situation of a distant celebrity or artist is. although i understand where Aden is coming from i dont think that it is at all realistic to judge that fairly or with any consistency.
In response to the last part of this question i can think of an example for each. one thing that is illegal but i feel is perfectly moral is the right to marry whomever you want. It is currently illegal for people to marry other people of the same gender and be recognized as such by the state and in any legal terms. I disagree with this.
One thing that i find to be totally immoral but is still legal is the fact that in our healthcare system a person in need of medical attention can be turned away from the help they need simply because they cannot afford it. i find this denial of healthcare in the U.S. immoral yet it is still perfectly legal and occurs everyday.
Post #5 Daniella Kesel
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gary. Just because downloading music is easy to get away with doesn't make it okay. I think the only reason why so many people download music illegally IS because it's so easy to get away with. If there wasn't a punishment for murder and if it were easy to get away with then I'd probably be really tempted kill a few certain people (just joking.. you get the idea though). So basically until the music industry creates a system where downloading music illegally is virtually impossible then I don't think this issue will be resolved.
I completely disagree with Aden's idea. Of course it's not okay to take something away from someone just because they’re rich and have worked extremely hard for what they have. It is totally disrespectful to download music illegally just because the artist is rich in my opinion and does not make it moral what so ever. Plus if everybody thought that way and decided to illegally download music, then the artist would start making no income and would not be rich.
My father is a proffesional musician who sees the music business slowly declining because of the illegal downloading of music, and yet what can you do? I personally have down loaded music (off the record) and understand that it is not a moral thing to do because it is against the law (theft). Regarding what aden said, it does not matter to me what financial status a particular artist has but when i download music, if it is classical i will buy it because I am personally connected to the classical music business and want to help support it.
ReplyDeleteBack to the morality of it, I agree with Ari when he writes, "If 80 percent of California's population committed murder tomorrow that would not make it right. It would just mean California has a huge murder problem that needs to be attended to. " The problem for me is, it seems that his hypothetical would relate more if he said that 80 percent of California committed murder and only 2 percent got caught because honestly I have seen people who have downloaded at least 40,000 songs and have not had any problem from federal agents or state police.
What about this though, isn't it illegal for Rabbi Goodman to copy articles from books that were not free and give them to us for free to read? Or When Mr. Brussell (music teacher) gives out popular paid for CD's to listen to for so we can practice hearing different instruments? As Gabe BJ said that he felt it was okay but what is the difference from getting it by a friend than getting it from someone that you do not personally know?
All of these kinds of situations relate to is it moral or not and in my opinion it is not and I can understand why it is illegal however, as Im writing this I just downloaded 3 songs.
Here are some websites where you can download free music.
-http://beemp3.com/
-http://pigeonsandplanes.com/
-http://www.earmilk.com/
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ReplyDeleteAbove is my 7th Post Extra Credit #1
ReplyDeleteIn response to the question, "Could something be illegal, but still be moral? What about something that might be immoral but is legal?" I say that something illegal can be moral but it is based on your moral point of view. If you kill a serial killer it makes sense that you would do so because by doing so, you are preventing other lives from being lost and you are somewhat avenging those lives that were lost. Yet the issue with that is that it is illegal to kill people no matter how many people they have killed. You can't take the law into your own hands, you need to let the law take care of this person. The only way youi'd be able to take care of this person legally is if they were going after you. an example of something that is legal yet immoral is that in law, if you find evidence in someones property that is capable of convicting someone, yet you don't have a warrant, the evidence becomes obsolete and all charges must be thrown out. This is immoral because you have proof that this person committed a crime and its obvious but you aren't allowed to prove it with this information.
ReplyDelete#3
#5
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Gary, just because most people do it doesn’t mean it is moral and acceptable. I found an article in a music blog from the United Kingdom from last year (http://drownedinsound.com/news/4136081-95-of-music-downloads-in-2008-were-illegal-dis-reacts-and-suggests-two-solutions) which provides some statistics as to how much music is downloaded illegally. It says that in the year 2008, ninety five percent of music downloaded was through an illegal bit torrent, or file sharing website. This journalist calculated that amount of money that was “stolen” from the music industry in 2008 because of illegal downloads was equal to around 40 billion dollars. Although I can assume that most of those musical artists are living comfortably right now, these people this worked hard and deserve our money. Although before I said that if you do not have the money, it is moral to download illegally, but after some research, I have learned how much money and how this affects the music industry.
I agree with Estefany. I think that not everything that is illegal is not moral and I think that there are some things that are legal that are immoral. Not everything is black and white, there is some grey I there. I believe that from a moral stand point there are some much more pressing laws being broken then stealing music. I do agree that it is wrong, but if we take a look around there is so much more going on in the world and some of it is wrong yet legal or illegal but right.
ReplyDeleteDid you know, that in Afghanistan rape was legal until 2009? My point? Just because something is legal, does not make it right. I understand that this was not in US but still. There are so many other examples that I can think of. Like what Estefany said about how is killing a serial killer really that bad? I think it depends on the situation, yes we don't have the right to play God, but what if this person killed someone you loved? Would you still think that the person who killed him did something wrong?