גמרא מצא פירות מפוזרין וכמה? א"ר יצחק: קב בארבע אמות. היכי דמי? אי דרך נפילה אפילו טובא נמי, ואי דרך הינוח אפילו בציר מהכי נמי לא. א"ר עוקבא בר חמא: במכנשתא דבי דרי עסקינן קב בארבע אמות דנפיש טרחייהו, לא טרח איניש ולא הדר אתי ושקיל להו, אפקורי מפקר להו. בציר מהכי: טרח והדר אתי ושקיל להו ולא מפקר להו. בעי רבי ירמיה: חצי קב בשתי אמות, מהו? קב בארבע אמות
טעמא מאי? משום דנפיש טרחייהו
GEMARA. IF ONE FINDS SCATTERED FRUIT, etc. What quantity [of fruit in a given space] is meant? R. Isaac said: A kab within four cubits. But what kind of a case is meant? If [the fruit appears to have been] dropped accidentally, then even if there is more than a kab [it should] also [belong to the finder]. And if it appears to have been [deliberately] put down, then even if there is a smaller quantity it should not [belong to the finder]? — R. ‘Ukba b. Hama answered: We deal here with [the remains of] what has been gathered on the threshing floor: [To collect] a kab [scattered over a space] of four cubits is troublesome, and, as people do not trouble to come back and collect it, [the owner also] abandons it, but if it is [spread over] a smaller space [the owner] does come back and collect it, and he does not abandon it. R. Jeremiah enquired: How is it [if one finds] half a kab[scattered over the space] of two cubits?
What are some thoughts you have on this text? Questions?
Risa
ReplyDeleteComment 2.5:
I agree with R. Isaac when he says that things that look scattered or accidentally dropped belong to the finder, but that things that look placed do not belong to the finder. It absolutely makes sense that someone who dropped something would not come back and that someone who has neatly placed something on the ground will, therefore meaning that if one is to take the placed items, they will be a thief. With respect to the amount of the item found, I also agree with R. Isaac. If, for example, I were to find some coins(referencing back to the other mishnah) scattered on the ground then according to R. Isaac and the Tanna Kama, those coins belong to me, the finder. However, if I find coins stacked on a table in a public venue, then since they are in an organized manner, according to R. Isaac I may not take them, but the Tanna Kama says that I can.
R. Isaac also mentions that, if I find 100 coins scattered, or 6,000 coins scattered, I am permitted to pick them up because they are scattered. However, if I find 100 coins stacked, I may not take them, nor may I take 5 stacked coins. But, what I ask is, with small numbers, how can one tell whether they are in the way of being placed or in the way of being fallen? For instance, if I find two coins sitting on a table, and they are right next to each other, how can I tell whether they were placed or dropped? After all, if they were placed then I am breaking R. Isaac's rule "EVEN IF THERE IS A SMALLER QUANTITY IT SHOULD NOT BELONG TO THE FINDER." So, what should I do in a case like that?
Sophia Gluck
ReplyDeletePost #2
I agree with Rabbi Isaac and Risa, about found objects that are placed vs. dropped. Let's say you are at the threshing floor and you see some randomly, non ordered grain, then you can take it because the owner dropped it in the way of falling. In this case you are assuming that the owner declared it owner less property because it is just left there in no order. Reversely, if it is placed then you cannot take it because the owner is planning on coming back and getting it, because they placed it in an orderly manner.
Regarding Risa's question about what to do if you find two coins just lying next to each other, I think that you can't decide if they are placed or dropped because there is such a small quantity. Instead you should look at other factors to figure out if the owner declared it owner less and you as the finder can take it. You can decide if the owner would have bothered to come back for it, like if its not too hard to pick up and no bother at all so the owner would definitely return to take to therefore you can't take it. Or perhaps it isn't of any value to the owner so he would have declared it owner less and you can take it. These factors will help you come to a conclusion in a case which is unclear.
I would like to pose a question about hephkering an object, or declaring it owner less property. What steps are required when declaring an object ownerless, can you just toss it to the side or do you have to utter the words "this doesn't belong to me anymore?
Sharon Agai
ReplyDeletePost #2
To start off, I agree with only half of what Rabbi Isaac, Risa, and Sophia are saying. If an object looks placed, it makes sense that you can not take it, but if something is "derech nefila" and not yet processed at the threshing floor, then is it considered Leket (gleanings)? In the Mishnah we are currently studying (http://halakhah.com/babamezia/babamezia_21.html), we are told that Leket may be taken by all once the "gropers" (i.e. the poor) have gone through it. So if this is considered Leket, how do we know if the poor have gone through it yet? In that case, how can we be permitted to take it? We would be breaking Jewish law if the poor have not gone through it.
In response to Risa's question, I agree with Sophia and would like to add that I think a small amount of coins has a similar law to a small amount of grain- if it is of little value or is defined as "small" by certain restrictions (ex. 1 Kab in 4 Amot for grain).
In response to Sophia's question, I think that if someone says it does not belong to them, or like the Mishnah we studied, is unaware that they lost it and give "ye'ush she lo mida'at".
#3
ReplyDeleteRegarding Sophia's response to Risa's question. I do agree that one would have to use their best judgement as to whether or not they could pick up a small amount of something, but in my personal opinion, it is always best to assume that the object has been placed. In that case, you give the loser ample opportunity to come back and get it. Maybe the finder should wait some time before picking up the lost object? Also, regarding if the object is chashivi or not.
The problem with using one's judgement (contradicting even myself a little bit here) is that one man's treasure could be another man's gold. If I have been working all year and accidently I leave behind 1/3 of my grain, that is really important grain to me. Whereas if I had simply left behind something of little importance to me than it wouldn't have been a big deal if someone picked it up.
The question is, how could I (being the finder) be able to judge whether the object I am picking up (size does not matter) is valuable to another man. My own answer is that it is nearly impossible if you do not know the man that has dropped it.
Post #2
ReplyDeleteFirst i want to say that I agree with R. Isaac about things that looked placed, the finder can not take. And things that look scattered is okay to take. Like Risa said, someone that dropped something obviously is not going to come back for it and someone that places something is going to come back.
As i read over this Mishnah i had a few questions to ask -
1. how can you tell if something is scattered or placed?
2. If the owner places something, for example eight coins stacked up on each other, the owner then leaves it, and somehow the stack of coins fell over. Then someone walks by and sees the coins. Now the coins looked scattered because they fell over. So since the finder thinks they are scattered he takes them. So when the owner comes back to take the coins, they are not there. Is the finder considered a thief?
#1 B
ReplyDeleteI disagree with R. Yitzhak in that if something looks place the owner will come back for it and if it looks scattered he would hefker it. If something looks placed it means the owner put it there on purpose which probably means he doesn’t want it anymore. If he did want it why would he purposefully leave it the public domain? A lot of times when people don’t want something anymore they leave it stacked on the side walk in front of their house so anyone can take it. If something is scattered and looks like it fell someone probably dropped it. Usually, when someone drops something they go back to look for it. If people assume that if they see something scattered on the ground they can take you would never be able to find something you lost if it doesn’t have an identifying mark on it.
Evan Fenner
ReplyDelete#2
In response to Shoshana: I think your logic is clear, but I think that the Mishnah asks us to look at the bigger picture. If we look at the text that we are studying now it says, "he will know that he dropped it because it is valuable." This would seem to show that if it is scattered, and thus assumed dropped, that he no longer want's it because he knew that he dropped it and didn't pick it up. It does not make sense to me that something that is left in order can be picked up though because you need a way that you can leave your things in which you don't have to worry about it being taken and you shouldn't have to mess it up on order to do that.
I am also confused about small quantities of objects. If, say, there is a single apple sitting on the ground, how does one know if it was dropped or placed. Does the fact that it is on the ground indicate that it has been dropped or do you have to judge by orientation and check for the bruise that would be the result of the drop? Then you could not take it if it was right-side-up and had no bruises and it was not on the ground. Bruises are not always indicative of a drop though, some people like to eat on the ground, and it is possible for it to be dropped right side up, so it seems very unclear. An apple seems a small thing to worry about though, maybe the owner would not care even if they had intended to come back for it because of its low value, but what if it were something of higher value like a watermelon? If you find a watermelon on the ground, it is probably more than one kav on its own, but you can't tell if it has been placed or dropped at all. There is no right-side-up and watermelons don't really bruise. If it is something large and valuable like a watermelon, do you disregard everything and assume that you can't take it, or go the path of the "lashonot shel argaman" which are valuable, but you are allowed to take?
This being with fruits also brings up another Torah issue of waste. The torah doesn't like waste, but the Mishnah seems to be telling us situations in which to leave fruit. Should there be some rule about a nearly rotting or rotten fruit that allows you to take it even if it looks placed in order to prevent waste?
#6
ReplyDeletethe גמרא starts off by clarifying how much fruit in how much space you can pick up but then the rabbis of the גמרא disagree and starts a larger argument all trying to clarify the main question, what does it mean you can pick up scattered fruit, what is scattered.
in response to Evan if fruit are nearly rotting or rotten why would any one want them even back then they knew a little about hygienes and knew that rotten fruit are bad for you and will make you sick.