Read the text of the Mishnah and comment.
דף כא,א משנה אלו מציאות שלו ואלו חייב להכריז אלו מציאות שלו מצא פירות מפוזרין מעות מפוזרות כריכות ברשות הרבים ועגולי דבילה ככרות של נחתום מחרוזות של דגים וחתיכות של בשר וגיזי צמר הלקוחין ממדינתן ואניצי פשתן ולשונות של ארגמן הרי אלו שלו דברי רבי מאיר ר' יהודה אומר כל שיש בו שינוי חייב להכריז כיצד מצא עגול ובתוכו חרס ככר ובתוכו מעות רבי שמעון בן אלעזר אומר כל כלי אנפוריא אין חייב להכריז
MISHNAH. SOME FINDS BELONG TO THE FINDER; OTHERS MUST BE ANNOUNCED.9 THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES BELONG TO THE FINDER: IF ONE FINDS
SCATTERED FRUIT, SCATTERED MONEY,10 SMALL SHEAVES IN A PUBLIC
THOROUGHFARE,11 ROUND CAKES OF PRESSED FIGS, A BAKER'S LOAVES,12 STRINGS
OF FISHES, PIECES OF MEAT, FLEECES OF WOOL WHICH HAVE BEEN BROUGHT FROM
THE COUNTRY,13 BUNDLES OF FLAX AND STRIPES OF PURPLE,14 COLOURED WOOL;
ALL THESE BELONG TO THE FINDER.15 THIS IS THE VIEW OF R. MEIR.16 R. JUDAH
SAYS: WHATSOEVER HAS IN IT SOMETHING UNUSUAL MUST BE ANNOUNCED,17 AS,
FOR INSTANCE, IF ONE FINDS A ROUND [OF FIGS] CONTAINING A POTSHERD, OR A
LOAF CONTAINING MONEY. R. SIMEON B. ELEAZAR SAYS: NEW MERCHANDISE18
NEED NOT BE ANNOUNCED.:
Sophia Gluck
ReplyDeletePost #1
The Mishnah here starts out with a list of objects that if found may be kept. Although the list seems weird to us, it was most likely common lost objects during the Misnaic time period. After the list of objects that can be kept, R Judah says "whatsoever has in it something unusual must be announce." This means that an object that has something unusual about it, to the extent that it can be identified must, be announced. In this case announced means, to announce to the community that a lost object has been found, and to do your best to find the owner. Back then they did not have engravings or labels they could put on their belongings to identify them, so they placed in-ordinary things such as a pottery shard, or a coin inside their belongings to identify them. R Judah is saying that if something can be identified it is your duty to return it to that person. The Mishnah ends with the comment from R Simeon ben Elazar saying "new merchandise need not be announced." This part troubled me, if this is meant literally, why would something new and valuable that has just been purchased and then lost, not need to be announced? It seems weird that something new, doesn't need to be returned. This is completely illogical so I thought about it a little deeper and came to the conclusion that "new merchandise" or "announced" must not mean what I am understanding it as. I think the meaning of "announced" is concrete so the hole must be found in "new merchandise [klei anpooriah]", does anyone have a interpretation of what New merchandise means?
Risa Dunbar
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In response to Sophia: I believe that R'Shimon ben Eliezer's term "new merchandise" is referring to objects that have absolutely no identifying flaws or symbols that, as Rabbi Judah calls it, could be "unusual" or, in other words, make it identifiable to the loser. For instance, when you buy a pot from a store and it somehow gets lost, the pot will not have anything unusual about it, for example, a drawing or rip that may identify it, and it certainly won't have a name inside of it if it is new merchandise or Klei Anpooriah. Because the new merchandise looks just like any other one of that same product, therefore making it indistinguishable, it is ok for the finder to keep.
I am now going to address Rabbi Judah's comment with regards to something unusual, and the requirement to announce an object that is unusual. I ask, what if an object once was unusual, for example a necklace with an initial on it, but somehow the unusual aspect of the object (the initial) comes off? What happens when a once distinguishable object becomes indistinguishable?
Jordan Dong
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Addressing "Klei Anpooriah", I agree with both Sophia and Risa. I also believe it seems very illogical to not return something that is new, when they probably just bought it at the market. In thinking about the logical reason for this, my opinion is the same as Risa's in the fact that since the object is new, it must not have any markings or flaws (later called Siman), which means you would not be able to identify who it belongs to. When reading through the passage, I had some questions that I thought of:
If something is required to be announced, do you take it and announce it, or do you leave it and announce it?
The Mishnah mentions public domain...but what about Private area?
I hadn't noticed this the bagillion times we read this as a class, but this Mishnah only mentions food and wool. Why? What about other items?
Being nitpicky here: "Fleeces of wool which have been brought from the country".....do these regulations/suggested path of coming upon lost objects not apply when it does not come from the country?
Sharon Agai
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In response to one of the first words of the Mishnah and the third part of Jordan's response, the definition of a "find" is unclear. What constitutes a find? It is clear that picking something up off the street counts as a "find", but what if I am at a friend's house and find an on the floor of her kitchen? Is that a find, or is it simply picking up an object at a friend's house?
Additionally, I'd like to address the instruction that "the following articles belong to the finder". Let's say a thief goes to the market. While a shopkeeper's back is turned, the thief takes 5 cakes of pressed figs and begins to run away. The shopkeeper sees him escaping and chases him. Startled, the thief drops one of the cakes of pressed figs.
Later that day, someone picks up the cake of pressed figs that the thief dropped. Is the finder committing theft?
P.S. Sorry for all the removed comments, my Internet is spazzing.
I also agree with both Risa and sophia, But i still do not understand why it would be okay for someone take new merchandise without announcing it. I get that If you buy an object, there might not be something unusual about it because it is new. But what does "new merchandise" mean? How long do you have to own the merchandise until it is considered old. Is the merchandise considered new if you just bought it and then lost it after an hour. If so then Risa's explanation of there not being something unusual about it makes sense, but if you have new merchandise for a couple of days then lose, it there is a bigger chance that there could be something unusual about it. Would it then still be okay for the finder to take it without announcing the lost object if it has something unusual about it?
ReplyDelete#1. Addressing Risa's comment about something that was once distinguishable now undistinguishable. The Mishnah says "WHATSOEVER HAS IN IT SOMETHING UNUSUAL MUST BE ANNOUNCED." This item once had a distinguishing mark in it, that is now gone so there is no longer anything there to tell it from the next necklace. I believe that it is now for the finder to keep, because it has no differentiating mark. The object is now as common as finding a coin on the street, it could be anyone's and is therefor meant for the finder to take. But I pose this question, what happens if we lose something undistinguishable, but new? This is a sort of opposing question, because the Mishnah addresses each part separately, but not together?
ReplyDeleteAdressing Sharon's question/Jordan's question. What happens if we find it in a friend's house verses on the street. If the object was "small sheaves" in "PUBLIC THOROUGHFARE," then I believe it is supposed to be announced. It is unclear whether or not the other objects mentioned are supposed to be announced or not because they were found in public, but were not specifically mentioned as having been found in the "PUBLIC THOROUGHFARE."
#2
ReplyDeleteAddressing Sharon's question about the thief in the market. If the thief had taken the loaf, that is stealing, no question about it. Even if he drops it though, the next person to pick it up is also stealing. Is it his? Unless it has been announced in which case the next person could pick it up. I would like to propose a counter question though, when the final person picked it up, was it still in the store? The store could be considered private property, and therefore not only was the original thief committing double crime, but the person who picked it up in the end was taking somebody’s private property unless otherwise announced. This is tricky because we don’t know where the thief who ran away dropped the cake of figs, and then this leads us to the question (just sort of reiterating what other’s said), what if he had dropped it ten feet in front of the store, what about 30 feet in front of the store? What is considered private and public property? The Mishnah is not clear on what or where we are allowed to pick up announced objects.
Just wanted to say I was reading all these comments and then subconsciously wanted to like all of them. We're so intellectual. hahah
ReplyDelete#1
ReplyDeleteThe Mishna gives us a list of all of the things that if found belong to the finder. All of these items can not be identified/do not have a symbol. When reading this I wasn't sure if this list was referring to only things on this list or giving us examples to the kind of things that if found belong to the finder. When it says "FLEECES OF WOOL WHICH HAVE BEEN BROUGHT FROM
THE COUNTRY" is it only talking about that specific situation or can it be referring to any kind of textile? Also does it only mean it only belongs to the finder if it comes from the country? What about th city? or another country?
Risa Dunbar
ReplyDeleteComment 1.5:
In response to Shoshana: In response to your questioning of the list, I believe that the list is demonstrative and not all-inclusive. From the text we see that these items are all indistinguishable, as you said, but there are a lot of other items that are indistinguishable as well, for example, challah or tefillin. When you refer to "FLEECES OF WOOL WHICH HAVE BEEN BROUGHT FROM THE COUNTRY," It seems to me that anything brought from the country would likely not find its rightful owner because it is so far away, and therefore the finder may keep the wool. Local wool on the other hand, may be easier for the loser to find, thus you may not take the wool. It has less to do with the specific place it is coming from, but more the likelihood of the loser finding it.
Evan Fenner
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I too, like everyone else before me take issue with the "New Merchandise." I understand the fact that you can't tell one from another, so you cannot identify it as yours, but what if it was something that was technically classified as "New Merchandise" but was extremely rare? If I had say a comic book that was a special edition so only 3 exist in the world, is someone still allowed to take it if I lose it? On a similar note, would I have to make the distinguishing mark on it my self, or would something like a book that has a personalized signature from the author in it count as being marked? What do you do if marking something makes it less valuable?
Klei Anporia could also be translated as "a merchant's goods" to mean anything that is mass produced. If it is read in this way what does it mean for handmade goods that are made in bulk and sold by a merchant but where each is hand made and unique?
To open a new issue, what do we think of the strings of fish? Being that fish do have distinguishing features about them and that strings may have different patterns of fish on them, why can the finder take them? Not all strings of fish are the same.
Pavla #1
ReplyDeleteTo respond to Evan; I find your interpretation of handmade versus mass-produced very interesting. Based on the fact that Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar says new merchandise need not be announced, I would say that merchant's goods, being mass produced, with so many out in the market (so not special edition comic books), a finder could certainly keep the item, because in theory the loser could get another one easily and accessibly. Therefore, I think handmade goods present the opposite case. They are likely each unique and probably valuable, so I don't think the finder would have to announce the item, in case it was of importance to the loser and the loser needs/wants it back.
The strings of fish: Yes, fish are distinguishable, but when cut up and dried, who can tell one piece of fish from another? If I dropped my strings of fish while walking, someone picking them up wouldn't say, "Oh this looks just like Pavla's dried fish! I should give it back!" I think in general food items are harder to identify, so they need not be announced.
I have my own observation point too: It is very bizarre to me, (although perhaps that is because I do not live in Talmudic times) why the text decides to point out these specific items. They are for the most part unrelated, and I do not see why the finder should keep these and not other objects persay. I understand it is a demonstrative list, but how does the Talmud even decide what to use as an example for the issue at hand?
#1
ReplyDeleteI found an online lost and found a website (It’s Rabbi Okvas’s ideal scenario) where you can report/”announce” a lost item, or search to find something you lost. What I found intriguing about this website was when you search to find the item you lost, it requires you to put in the following information: The category, sub-category, keyword, city/town, state, and the postal code where the item was lost. In the Gemara, it states that “I (the looser) give the sign, and get it” This also means “I describe it and I get it.” This is saying that if you describe the object in detail that you lost, you are able to claim it. There is another question regarding the Mishnah. What if the object that is found has a sign in it, do you still have to describe the object? Or do you explain the sign? I think that no matter what, when an object is found and the loser comes to claim it, the loser has to describe it or claim it is theirs. It would not be fair, if the loser who was a fake was able to claim an object that wasn’t theirs. What do you think?
Here is the website: http://www.lostandfound.com
#3
ReplyDeleteIn response to Pavla (who responded to Evan), I think that handmade versus mass produced is a very interesting argument. New merchandise is new merchandise is my opinion. If it is new, whether a freshly woven sweater from grandma or a comic book, it need not be announced, meaning it can be taken. R. SIMEON B. ELEAZAR SAYS: NEW MERCHANDISE18
NEED NOT BE ANNOUNCED. But I too wonder why this might be, if it is new, surely it is more valuable to the loser, an interesting question indeed.
And on to Evan's question of marking yourself or it already having a distinguished mark. I believe that you must make the mark yourself. Let's say the author is quite famous and has signed 1,000's of copies, yours could be no different from Moishe's down the street. If you put your own mark into it, all you need to do is describe it to get it back. I believe that a mass mark can not be the distinguishing factor for getting your lost object back, that is almost not fair, anyone could have that same signed book.
I also agree with Risa when she talks about the list (in response to Shoshana). I believe that the list is exclusive. These things are so specific on that list that it is hardly fair to include so many other things. When the gemara goes into such specifics, I believe it has meant to do so, only to emphasize which object a finder can and cannot pick up/take with him and which the loser must announce as hephker.
Where in fact, do you think Rabbi Meir has come up with this list, could I not, if I wanted to, come up with my own? Do you think this list is just relevant to his time, or do you think it was specific for some reason?