Go back and read some of the Talmud entries and blog post from past students. Post your thoughts, comments and ideas on something you read here. We will be continuing forward from this point in the Talmud- it would help to have a basis for what we are arguing about.
L'Shalom,
R' Goodman
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Roza who stated that according to http://www.bje.org.au/learning/judaism/ethics/social/tzedakah.html (“Tzedakah - Charity in the Jewish Tradition”-Academy Board of Jewish Education), “it is sinful for a Jew to refuse charity if they are truly in need”.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with this however, I also think that if a Jew were to think that charity would be better deserved to someone that needed it more, it should not be a sin for a jew to refuse charity
Regarding to what the community should do if they find out someone is taking tzedakah that does't need it, the community should not stop giving tzedakah but make sure that the right people are receiving it.
In response to Alex: I agree with Alex. I believe that a person who may be receiving charity has right to refuse it. Claiming that it is a sin to refuse a helping hand may stupid, but is definitely not a bad deed. If the reason why it is a sin is to protect the feelings of those who are doing the charity then, I strongly disagree. If someone is in so much pain, trouble or poor that they need charity shouldn't it be up to them to turn it down or take it? Think of it this way when you apologize to someone, you normally go in expecting forgiveness...... Do you always get it? No. Can you really blame the person to whom you are apologizing? No.
ReplyDeleteWe see people all over the city everyday who are in the kind of situation in which they may need help, but shouldn’t they also have their dignity, their right to make their own choices. They have lost so much, and even if it was their own doing, don’t they still deserve the right to a simple choice?
As for people who take tzedaka when they don’t need it. I believe it is up to the community to make sure that the people who need it are getting help. If they were to stop tzedaka all together, then no one wins. When someone in your own community is in need I think it is best to deliver the tzedaka directly to show that the community is there to support them in any way they may need. (Also this way no one can take it if they don’t need it) =)
Alex brings up a lot of aspects of giving Tzedaka. I am a little confused by the fact that the Rabbi’s declared it sinful to not accept Tzedaka. By doing this, it seems they are really trying to discourage people from not accepting Tzedaka. It doesn’t seem like something that they would need to discourage, it seems like most people would be grateful for Tzedaka. Does anyone have any ideas on why the Rabbi’s went so far as to call it a sin?
ReplyDeleteThe text is also ambiguous. “it is sinful for a Jew to refuse charity if they are truly in need” What does it mean to be truly in need? Who decides this?
In response to Alex’s first point (that a Jew can refuse charity if they think someone else needs it more) I actually disagree with this. In Jewish Law, you are supposed to give all the Tzedaka you can that does not take away from your basic needs. For example, you can give food unless you give so much that you yourself are hungry. I think this comes into play here. Of course there will always be people who need the money more than others, but by accepting the money anyways and meeting their own needs, that person could in turn go and help someone else more than they would be able to if they didn’t have their own needs met.
Lastly, I agree with what Alex said that a community should continue to give Tzedaka even if they find out their money has been going to people who don’t need it, but they should find people who actually are in need. I’m wondering though, how would they go about doing this? Who would decide if someone is actually in need?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the last comment, Super said that he/she doesn't realize why the Rabbi's would declare refusing charity, a sin. I think they take it this far in cases where the people receiving Tzedeka are embarrassed because their community will judge them, and therefore they might reject the Tzedeka although they need it. They do not want to appear weak in the eyes of the community so they refuse Tzedeka. And situations like these might be the reason that the Rabbi's would call refusing charity, a sin.
ReplyDeleteIn response to what Emma and Alex said, the Rabbi's say its a sin to refuse charity if they are truly in need. Yes I agree with Alex that if the charity can go to someone who deserves it more, then they should get it but the Rabbi's say if you are in need then it is a sin to refuse Tzedaka and in Alex's situation the people are not in need since it can go to someone else who deserves it more therefore I think that example is irrelevant since we are dealing with people are truly in need.
According to Roza, when a community discovers that someone is unnecessarily receiving tzedakah, the person only needs to repay the fund if the community doesn't have enough for someone actually in need. I disagree with this. I think that if a person falsely takes tzedakah, then they should fully repay the tzedakah fund. According to Talmud Ketubot 67b, even if a person with means takes tzedakah, he or she is obligated to totally repay the tzedakah fund, even when they are dead. So, if someone is discovered to be undeserving of the charity, then he should pay back the entire amount, because he is still obligated to repay it all.
ReplyDeletePost #1
ReplyDeleteGoing back to what Gabe and Boris said, I see that the Rabbi's can and do discourage Tzedaka for the sole purpose of the people who reject it due to embarrassment and public humiltion they face, even if they are in need. Rejecting Tzedaka is seen as a sin since people are putting their own hard earned money out there for others to use, without expecting anything in return. Its kind of like saying you dont want the food that you've been served at a homeless shelter ( if you were a homeless). Touching on what Gabe said I think that if one takes/accepts Tzedaka and does not need it, he/she should repay it to the donor and be punished in some sort of way. This ultimately comes down to taking someone elses money for the sole purpose of their own gain and improvement, rather than helping themselves get by during tough times. But I do disagree with Gabe in that one cannot pay back anything to anyone once they are dead, hence the family of the deceased should be held accountable for any funds unaccounted for.
In a response to Emma, I think people should accept a charitable gift from someone. When someone takes the thought and time to show you their support and care, you really have an obligation to show them you appreciate what they are doing for you, which in this situation should be accepting their gift. Now that doesn't necessarily mean you must put it to use, but showing someone gratitude is important. Personally, if I took the time and effort to give someone truly in need a gift, or whatever I can provide them that would be of help, and they refused it, I would feel pretty lousy. If someone is "in-need", then they really have their arms open to any oppurtunity presented to them, or any charitable gift. But they are not in the situation to be picky about what they want. Emma, you speak of community, and showing someone directly that you care and support them. But I think it goes both ways. I think that both sides of this giving and recieving process should really provide eachother with the kindness, love, respect, care, support, and gratitude that they each deserve. And so, I do not think that refusing a charitable gift should be a sin, but I understand and find the concept reasonable. On another note, some people may not accept the gift out of embarassment, or a high level of pride and dignity. In this case, I think that the giver should find an alternate way to provide the gift in a way that will make the person in need comfortable. But I also think that the person in need, really needs to look at their situation and realize that in their situation, they really need to open up their arms to that kindness and support people show them, and not focus on just their pride. Even if it is your family member who is helping you, and you do not want to accept their gift, you need to take a step back and consider their effort to give a little and show them you can make an effort to show gratitude in the right way.
ReplyDeletePerri Davis #1 on text about miser who doesnt give money
ReplyDeleteI feel that the comments discussing who is eligible to receive tzedakah are missing the main point of what the text is trying to get across and getting lost in the details. It is dealing with a gift vs. a loan and how to offer assistance to those in need without embarrassing them.
Regarding a gift vs. loan, I disagree with Maya Katz-Ali when she said that assistance is first offered as a gift and then a loan. I feel that it is better to offer the loan first because not only does it honor the fact that one without means may feel uncomfortable accepting a hand-out, but also because then they are given the opportunity to have the option of repayment. If they then decide that they cannot pay it back, then it will become free of charge, as a gift.
Although i don't think this was the main point of the text, i do want to touch upon the idea of how to judge a person's financial situation based on perceived need. I believe that one may appear to have means but still need a tzedakah loan. For instance, the elderly; one may seem financially stable, but they need to hold onto that money as a safety net in case of an emergency, particularly regarding their health. When they pass, they may be happy to have the loan paid from their estate.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHarris #1
ReplyDeleteIn response to super: rabbis probably made it sinful to turn down tzedakah so that people would not turn away help they needed out of pride. Rabbis often motivate people behind psychological logistic reasons of helping people, and not just directly sense making laws.
Rabbis valued helping fellow Jews before others, and the rabbis have probably decided that if you are in a position to accept tzedakah, you are in true need. I agree with Super’s disagreement with Alex in the refusal of tzedakah; in that helping yourself can in turn put you in a position to help others.
Lastly, I disagree with that community still giving tzedakah when their money was going to people who didn’t need it. In that kind of situation I think that the best thing to do is put a freeze on giving money, until the people giving take over the organization and find people in or near their area to give too that deserve it. Giving should start at home, not some random place where you don’t even know who’s receiving.
Harris #2
ReplyDeleteIn response to Alex: I agree. A person who takes from tzedaka when they are undeserving should have to pay back more than they took. An example should be made of these theifs, like in the story of R’ Eliezer where he tried to win an argument with the sages by magic, and they banished him so that Israelites would not start using magic and fighting to win arguments.
If this is not done people like this will use tzedakah essentially for fast cash loans, which they can pay back at anytime. Humiliation should possibly be attached to further detur this kind of behavior, and make examples, maybe this should be considered a sin.
Lastly, in Talmud Ketubot 67b is the person who took the tzadakah obligated to totally repay the tzedakah fund in its entirety of all that is gone, or just what they took?
Perri #3
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Harris that giving tzedakah can be done to ones we know in the community around us, because we sometimes have to start small in order to make big changes. Harris also wrote, "Giving should start at home, not some random place where you don't even know who's receiving it". This i do disagree with because it is considered one of the highest mitzvahs to give and not know who is recieving. It is an even higher mitzvah if they do not know who the giver is as well. Yes, giving tzedakah to what seems like a random place can be somewhat risky but that risk is what makes it more of a mitzvah and we have to except the fact that it is not fully in our hands who receives it.
Michael said in his argument against my first comment that no one would ask for a gift of money, this is why instead the gift should be offered first so that people have a chance to get the money they need. I disagree that no one would ask for a gift. If they truly were in desperate need of money, modesty would not get in the way. If they were not in dire need of a gift, they may just feel very ashamed that they need a gift and feel humiliated when it is offered, hard as it may be to understand. I said that a loan should be offered first just so that the person can keep their dignity, and then later and confidentially, they can be free from returning the money.
Michael #3
ReplyDeleteI agree a lot with what Devon wrote and I think that, that is the biggest point of the text. It is what defines poor, and what gives someone the right to take from the Tzedakah box. I feel that if a person really needs the money then by all means they should take it but if you are standing in front of it wondering whether or not you should take some money to make your life a little better then I think it is better not to take it. I think this because there are a lot of people out their in worse situations that would need the money more so even if you can't give to Tzedakah because you barely have enough money to support yourself, do not take extra, because you are making someone else's life worse.
To address the argument of a gift vs a loan, I think that a gift should come first, especially if you do not know the full financial background of the person, because what if you give a loan to someone who knows they can't pay it back. They wouldn't be able to accept it knowing that you expect your money back and they can't give it back. However if you offer a gift than anyone will be able to except it and further in the future if you finances improve then you can pay the person back if you would like. Perri wrote that a loan is a way to give a person money without the embarrassment of taking free money, but many people cannot afford loans and nobody will ask for a gift of money. If anything they will ask for a loan if they can pay it back and then you may give them a loan but I think that a gift should be offered first because it gives all people who need money a chance to get it while a loan only offers money to people who can pay it back.
(I had to re-post it because I forgot to number it)