The Tur (R' Jacob Ben Asher, Spain, 1269-1343) explains based on the Talmud:
"A poor person that goes from place to place, one cannot give them less than a bread two ounces in weight. And if he is spending the night, give him bedding to sleep on, and clothes to put under his head. And oil, and beans. If it is Shabbat, give him food for three meals, oil, beans, fish and vegetables. And if you are familiar with him, provide him according to his honor. And if you are able to give, give him whatever he asks for, and if not, forward him onto to someone who can help him since God will come to aid." (Yoreh De'ah 250:4)
Is this a reasonable amount? Is it fair that a person who begs should be provided for, no matter how poor the person they are asking? Why should poor people travelling be afforded any rights in a community- shouldn't their own community take responsibility for them? Feel free to add your own questions...
A problem now is that since the community we live in is huge and diverse, there's no way to know who's really traveling and who isn't. There are many people that walk up to you with a pretty well rehearsed speech and say "I'm from Oregon and I need money to get back. My brother kicked me out..." How do you know who to believe?
ReplyDeleteAnd also, when this happens, you don't always have food or money. It's stupid and unsafe to take these people home where you could give them something. Another issue is that they don't usually want food, they want money for whatever reason.
I think poor travelers should be afforded rights in all communities they travel through because then travelers from those communities will be helped in other communities.
As to the question about the poor having to help out travelers, I think the poor should do the best they can and "forward" the travelers "unto someone who can help". The help could be people that are willing and able to help, a shelter, or a tzedakah fund...
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ReplyDeleteAs Roza stated, how is it possible for the poor to give so much to travelers? I understand that it is possible for the poor and others who do not have what travelers need to show them another way or place to receive what they need. But how is it possible to define ones honor? Yes, you may know they for a while but what do the Rabbi's say about defying somones honor when it comes to a traveler?
ReplyDeleteWhat if the people the traveler was sent to, to find their needs, does not have what the want? Do people continue to send them along the road until the traveler is satisfied or can we send them to tzedakah? Can the tzedakah give them money or a place to stay for the night? Why must it be people in the community if they are already obligated to give money to Tzedakah?
I don't agree with The Tur because this person is going around begging for everything and spending no time ACTUALLY WORKING!
ReplyDeleteIn the story of Ya'akov, he comes from nothing to a strangers home to try and ask for one of the daughters of the household. He works for seven years on the family farm just to be tricked into marrying the eldest daughter. He is so attached to the other daughter though that he keeps working for another seven years to finally get his wife. In other words, HE WORKED FOR HIS REWARD!
This is exactly what the poor begger should TRY to accomplish along his journey. I think it is acceptable to ask for a meal or receive the special amount for shabbat, but to give him anything he needs?!? I feel that it should be seen by the Tzedakah council/collectors that he is at least trying to find a job or a place to work in order to receive the amount of Tzedakah indicated by The Tur. If it isn't shown by the Tzedakah collectors/council that he isn't trying to find work, then people don't need to provide for him since it encourages others to follow in his footsteps.
Think about it, what if you saw someone going from house-to-house, or town-to-town asking for whatever they want with everyone supplying him? I think that others may see how much wealth he is accumulating and would want to be poor to in order to receive the fortune he is getting.
The first question we must ask when addressing this text is, where does the food, oil, bed etc. come from? The two most reasonable answers are, either from the tzedakah kis or from an individual Samaritan. For the sake of reality, let us assume that there is no individual in the community that is willing to provide all of these commands for a traveler. This means the goods would need to be drawn from, or bought with money from the kis. But this raises the issue of how to prioritize the spending of the kis. From previous texts we know that an orphan girl ranks pretty high on the priority list, but where does a poor traveler rank?
ReplyDeleteTo answer this question I would like to quote Cesare Pavese. “Traveling is a brutality. It forces you to trust strangers and to lose sight of all that familiar comfort of home and friends. You are constantly off balance. Nothing is yours except the essential things – air, sleep, dreams, the sea, the sky – all things tending towards the eternal or what we imagine of it.” Traveling (assuming you are not a sun-burnt American tourist on the beaches of Maui) can be very tough, especially if one is poor and alone. Because of this I believe it is the duty of the host community to at least provide this traveler with dignity. This means a place to rest, food and bed. Marriage can wait, but with travelers the community must decide if they will accept or reject them, while the traveler is in their town.
What if the required amount is all that the person has? It says, “and if not [able to give], forward him onto to someone who can help him." So if the required amount is all he has, would that mean he is not able to give? Or if the person is able to give the poor person the required amount, but then he has too little for himself, and them becomes poor himself? I think that would defeat the point of helping the poor. One poor person will be fed and clothed, but another will become poor because of that. Also, I’m not sure if that is really necessary to give the poor person so much. I think he should be given what he needs, like bread and water, but why the beans? The oil makes sense, since it is more sufficient/”fattening”, but I think the person should be allowed to give what he has. What is he has some other food, but not bread or beans? He should still be able to feed the needy, but not necessarily those specific foods. Especially if he has lots of food or is rich, but for some reason doesn’t have bread, he should still feed the poor person.
ReplyDeleteAnd the line, “if you are able to give, give him whatever he asks for,” does that mean that if the poor person asks for absolutely anything you should give it to him, even if he doesn’t need it? It would make sense if the line just meant if he asks for something reasonable, or something that he actually needed, rather than just anything.
I think all that is asked of a host is acceptable. These resources are not hard to come by. ("CLOTHES..." - not a pillow - "under his head".) Also, it gives people the choice of sending the guest off to someone else.
ReplyDeleteIn Judaism, welcoming guests is very important. Rashi said on Chagigah 27a, "'A PERSON'S TABLE MAKES ATONEMENT FOR HIM' - means, 'because he welcomes hungry guests to the table'". Here, it says that welcoming guests atones for sins.
In the Otzar Midrashim on Genesis chapter 18, it says "Greater is welcoming guests than connecting to the Face of G-d". Obviously, welcoming guests into your home is a big deal.
That is why this text tells us to provide for this "guest". One: because they are poor and are asking for help, and two: because it is a great thing to do in Judaism.
Then there is the question on what if the host is poor? In an older post, we discussed the giving of 1/10 of a person's possessions to those in need. I believe it is the same case here. Even just giving your time to help this person can count as your possessions.
There is a story about a poor traveler (who happens to be an angel) who comes to two different houses: one of a poor man, and one of a rich man. The rich man blows the traveler off, but the poor man gives him everything he can - while still taking care of himself. In the end, the traveler reveals himself, rewards the poor man, and curses the rich man. This story shows that even giving all that you can, even if it is not a large amount, is righteous.
In response to Irina's question, I think that the line means that if the traveler asks for anything that would help him with his travels or is associated with his travels, then you should give it to him. Assuming he is a legitimate traveler, then he probably wouldn't ask for anything big or unreasonable.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Rabbi Goodman's question (Is it fair that a person who begs should be provided for, no matter how poor the person they are asking?), I think that it is not fair. Like Irina said if you help a poor person not be poor and in the process make yourself poor, then nothing good turns out of the situation. Instead, I think if a traveler comes to a poor person, the person should (even though it might be uncomfortable and seem rude) refer to the quote "and if not, forward him onto to someone who can help him since God will come to aid." Since after all helping a person is an act of kindness and putting someone in front of you, but sometimes you must come first.
My question is: If the traveler stumbles upon an entire isolated community that is poor. How should the villagers act when the traveler asks for money?
To further prove Beth's point about the importance of welcoming guests in Judaism, we can refer to a story in the Torah itself. While Avraham is resting in the heat of the day after his circumcision, he notices three travelers, and what does he do? He RUNS to greet them and says, "My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and recline yourselves under the tree. And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and stay ye your heart; after that ye shall pass on; forasmuch as ye are come to your servant," (Genesis 18: 3-5). Avraham's actions are seen as the classic model of hospitality in Judaism.
ReplyDeleteI think that the answer to this question can be found in the Torah in Leviticus 19:34: "The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." When a stranger comes to our land we are suppose to treat him with the respect and cutesy as if he was a member of our community. So, if we were going to give a member of our own community a "bread two ounces in weight. And if he is spending the night, give him bedding to sleep on, and clothes to put under his head. And oil, and beans. If it is Shabbat, give him food for three meals, oil, beans, fish and vegetables..." then we need to provide that much for a stranger.
ReplyDeleteThere is one part of the text that I do not understand: "And if you are familiar with him, provide him according to his honor. And if you are able to give, give him whatever he asks for," why is this part included? How often does a stranger travel through the same place? And if you know the stranger, doesn't that mean he is no longer a stranger?
I would like to answer Grant's question, "'And if you are familiar with him, provide him according to his honor. And if you are able to give, give him whatever he asks for,' why is this part included? How often does a stranger travel through the same place? And if you know the stranger, doesn't that mean he is no longer a stranger?" Let's say that the stranger is on his return journey and is going back the way he came? Then, wouldn't you know him? Also it could be a regular journey that they take, like a business trip or something.
ReplyDeleteAlso, when Irena was talking about the specifics of food and how you should be allowed to give what you have and not exactly what the text says, "I think the person should be allowed to give what he has. What is he has some other food, but not bread or beans? He should still be able to feed the needy, but not necessarily those specific foods," I think the text is assuming that everyone has beans and and bread and that if you don't, you would give some sort of equivalent to those staples.
The traveler's community should be responsible for the traveler somewhat, but the community that the traveler comes across should be responsible for bedding and meals. The community they come from shouldn't be responsible for food or bedding because what if it is a long journey and the food would go bad, and the bedding is too much to carry? We also learn from the Torah how important it is to receive guests, and how welcoming them into your home replaced the mitzvah of sacrifice (as we are learning in Tanach). Going off of that, receiving guests is not only helpful, but it also a commandment.
In the situation that you know that the poor person knocking at your door is traveling, I believe the Tur’s opinion is reasonable except for the part about letting this random traveler stay at your house. Two ounces of bread really is not that much. That’s probably a slice, or two, of bread. As for his expectations for Shabbat, I also think this is acceptable because Shabbat is a holy day meant for rest and celebration. If someone is to poor to support themselves, for whatever reason, they should be able to celebrate this holiday. Shabbat isn’t a privilege, it is a gift and it is a big part of the Jewish religion. The Tur says you should give the poor traveler all of those items only if you are financially able to. If you can spare a few meals, you should let someone observe the Sabbath without him having to get food from all over town (which is work and cannot be done by an observant Jew on Shabbat). As for providing a bed on a weekday, I don’t think it is easy to let a stranger into your house. If it is someone you know and they need a place to stay, by all means help them out. If it I stranger, you cannot trust that he won’t steal anything.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Lila: it is a mitzvah to receive guests and be kind towards them. If someone is in need, why NOT help them with what you have? You will probably never see this traveler again. Wouldn't you want him to look back and think, "Wow! That place I came across that one time was so generous!"? This minimum set by The Tur is not difficult at all, and therefore, people in the town should be more than willing to help out someone in need. When it's someone in your town, they might keep coming back and you might be left with very little because they know you, but when it's just a traveler that is in need, it is much easier to feel good and know that there is no baggage attached.
ReplyDeleteTo follow up on Anthony's question, I'm sure that there is still a little bit to give to a poor person that is traveling. Of course these minimums probably should not have to be completely met if all the people in that community are impoverished, but I'm sure they still have to somewhat help out. It is a mitzvah to do so, so maybe karma will come around and help them out too. They should act kindly and hospitably, and try to help out though.
Again we see "according to his honor" mentioned. What if you don't know him THAT well? What if his 'honor' in his town has changed since you last saw him?
Also, does it look bad if they "forward him onto to someone who can help him"? Should a person give less than the minimum just to do a mitzvah? Or should they just give him to someone that they know will take better care?
does this text apply to the modern day? these days travelers who come to your door (in USA) are questioned or judged. people are very cautious of travelers that come to their door. They are probably thinking is this person dangerous? is he going to steal something or act disrespectful? Sometimes these suspicions are justified. What would people do if the traveler stole something or acted with disrespect or even hurt the host's family? Is there a punishment or any rules for the traveler?
ReplyDeleteas for the community that is taking in the traveler. I think it is great that they take on the responsibility of the traveler. You never know why he is traveling or what his situation is.
As I mentioned in the page titled “The Giver’s Obligation” I don’t think the point of the tzedakah laws is to make sure needy people are satisfied (although this is also very important). I think the point of these laws is to make the world a place where everybody gives righteously. I think that this specific law accomplishes that by enforcing tzedakah so that it becomes a habit for people. We know this because if it wanted only to satisfy the traveler, then it would say something like give the traveler whatever he wants, even if it means personal sacrifice, like in the story where the father of Hillel runs three miles for an orphan. Instead, this text says to provide basic food staples, and if you can’t provide what he wants, then pass him off to someone else. This leads me to believe that this law wants everyone to be able to give, as well as satisfy the traveler. Making sure the traveler is happy is important, because they are traveling, so they can spread good word about your town to others which would result in an indirect positive outcome.
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ReplyDeleteIn response to Anthony’s question
ReplyDeleteI think that if one came across an entire village that was poor, then they should obviously be considerate of their circumstances. Midrash Tehillim 23:3 teaches us “On the day a guest arrives, a calf is slaughtered in his honor; the next day, a sheep, the third day, a fowl, and on the fourth day, he is served just beans.” This implies that although we are obligated to give to guests, they are inversely obligated not to impose or overstay. For example it wouldn’t be fair to demand the oil, beans, fish and vegetables, clothes and a bed that are normally required.
In response to Maya Katz-Ali
It is much easier to follow the teachings of the Talmud when there are others around you who follow and respect its rules. However, because times have changed, very few people purposefully follow the Talmud’s laws. This makes it difficult to practice some laws. For example, when it was written, it was probably commonplace for travelers to stay at random homes, and there were generally accepted rules, guidelines, and manners for such occasions. Because these no longer exist, where we live now no one lets strangers sleep in their homes. Although these rules don’t specifically apply, there is still a message behind them which will always be important which is to be as hospitable and generous as possible. I would love to hear responses to either of these two awnsers, and also to my post above.
I agree with the Tur in the amount of what we are supposed to give to a traveling poor person. Although it really depends on the situation. For example, if the one who is being asked is also poor, then they shouldn't be required to give so much, they should have to give less, because they need it to. I believe that a poor person begging should be provided according to the wealth of the giver.
ReplyDeleteA poor person traveling should have total rights in all communities. The community which he is from might have completely shut him off, and refused to be responsible for him. So, all other communities in the world should see their responsibility in taking care of this traveling beggar. In fact we as Jews are commanded to repair the world, "Tikkun Olam". If we give a poor person some food and a bed to sleep in, it is like we are fixing his world. Each person that we help, we help the whole world. It's like a cycle, we help someone get back on their feet, and once they can stand then they start walking and begin to help other people.
In response to anthony's question-"If the traveler stumbles upon an entire isolated community that is poor. How should the villagers act when the traveler asks for money?" I believe that the villagers should each contribute to a pooled fund, so that the traveler will at least get something.
In response to ari's question-"does it look bad if they "forward him onto to someone who can help him"? Should a person give less than the minimum just to do a mitzvah? Or should they just give him to someone that they know will take better care?" I believe that helping them in even the smallest way, is better then not helping at all. Because we are required to help people who are needy. This doesn't mean though that we shouldn't send him off to someone who can provide more because the more the better. Also, sending the person off to someone else does not erase the responsibility that you have to take care of this poor person.
I agree with the Tur; it is exceedingly important to be able and willing to provide for the poor, not only to provide him/her with money, but with food and shelter. Roza, and many other Talmudic scholars stated that they would not let the poor traveler sleep at their house. This, I feel is a true issue. Where does one sleep if he is poor and homeless, nevertheless to mention, he is traveling on the road? Poor people are people too. They too, need food and shelter; not one or the other . . . but both. As the Commandments state: “love thy neighbor as thyself”. You heard it, you are supposed to treat the poor in the same manner as you would like to be considered. So if you were a vagabond on the road, you would, without a doubt, want a warm bed to sleep in and a roof over your head at night; because who knows where you will be the next day?
ReplyDeleteSociety, in Talmudic times and in modern times, needs to evolve in such a manner where having a stranger stay the night at one’s house is not considered atypical, so that these problems can be avoided in the future.
I respectively disagree with Ami's answer to ari's question-"does it look bad if they forward him onto to someone who can help him?" This isnt a small thing, if you send them off to someone you know could help them more than you could is HUGE. You helped them one, not have to go around to every door, and two, they know they will be taking care of. In a poor persons case, more is better because of how little they get. Sending a person away to a house you know could help does fulfill your responsibility, you have sent them to get food and warmth, and many things they dont have. The poor person might have not found that place. But countering what i've said, What if the house the people refer the poor person to doens't help at all? Also, how mayn poor people could you send off to one house, that one house might have enough things for two people?
ReplyDeleteTo answer Brooke's questions “What if the house the people refer the poor person to doesn't help at all? Also, how many poor people could you send off to one house, that one house might have enough things for two people?” I am sure the person who is referring a house would know which houses are known to help others. In addition, the newly referred house would refer another house if they are unable to or unwilling to help, and the same thing would happen if they were to have multiple people referred to their household if they can not help them.
ReplyDeleteI do not like the idea of having to take in a traveling person in to your house that you do not know because there is no way for you to trust them. People could take advantage of this rule by asking to stay a night in a rich man's house and then stealing his belongings at night. Also if the people in the house want their personal privacy at night. Instead of them having to let them stay the night at their house, they should be allowed to give the money to stay at a motel for the night instead.
I think that this is too much to ask of someone who is already reeling obligated to provide for the needy in his community. I don’t think its fair for him to also have to provide for someone other from another community. It would certainly be a kind thing to do if the community got together to help him out, but like I said I don’t think it should be a requirement.
ReplyDeleteSomething else I was curious about was what if you have financially enough to supply your family and yourself, but you are just making ends meet. Just barely paying your monthly paycheck. Are there separate rules about weather or not you too have to give to charity, when you yourself could be collecting it? Another question I was wondering about is: What if a beggar pulls him/herself out, meaning he/she no longer needs to collect but continues to do so anyway? I read an article the other day, which talks the estimated amount of money a beggar collect per day month or year. This article states that an average beggar can make up to $20 or $50 a day. That’s only about 12 dollars less a day than the minimum wage in California. So why wouldn’t people just switch to begging as apposed to working countless hours doing tedious jobs. This article also talks about how beggars strategize; and how they might say they are crippled, to gain sympathy, but really not is. How women with children tend to receive more money. So how do we know that these traveling beggars really don’t have a home in another town?
By: "I think poor travelers should be afforded rights in all communities they travel through because then travelers from those communities will be helped in other communities."
ReplyDeleteI meant in this story, in which it's assumed that you know who's a traveler and it's safe to bring them home.
I think that these food requirements make sense. This is like a form of Tzedakah, in that you are giving to a poor person (food and a place to stay). Yet, I think that, if the person cannot provide the poor person with all the food required, they should not sent the poor person away. Rather, if the poor person seems content with what they get, even though it doesn't fulfill the requirements, they poor person should stay in the house. Also, what if the house the poor person goes to is isolated, and when you tell the poor person to leave because you cannot provide all the requirements, the poor person ends up walking for miles to find another house. That doesn't seem fair.
ReplyDeleteIn modern society, this case of poor people who are traveling, and need a place to stay is uncommon. I is very uncommon to see a (poor) traveler go to someones house, and that someone let the poor person in, and feed them and let them sleep for the night. Usually, as Maya mentions, when a traveler comes to someones door in modern society, the someone is very cautious and thinks the traveler maybe dangerous. In the end, the traveler usually gets ignored or told to go away if he knocks on someones door and asks to stay there. So, is this text even relevant to our modern society, seeing that (poor) travelers are almost never allowed into someone house, be fed and given a bed to rest on? Should modern society change and start to accept poor travelers, or should this text be ignored, or considered "outdated", due to how our modern society acts?
To answer Alex's questions: So, is this text even relevant to our modern society, seeing that (poor) travelers are almost never allowed into someone house, be fed and given a bed to rest on? No not necessarily, Alex is right, when was the last time you let someone you don't know into your house and provided food, a bed, and clothes for them. For that matter when was the last time any poor person has even thought to ask that of someone, in this modern era.
ReplyDeleteBut I think that Alex's second question is even more important: Should modern society change and start to accept poor travelers, or should this text be ignored, or considered "outdated", due to how our modern society acts?
I thik that it is absurd to ask all of modern society to suddenly adapt to the ways of the times of the Toarh, but wouldn't a little bit of adapting help? A little bit goes a long way. Maybe providing some food, but not necessarily let a stranger come in a stay the night, little things will help us make steps to a more accepting and welcoming life, and communities around the world.
To stray away from Alex's questions to give my opinion, I think that it is a reasonable amount for food, not so much sleeping, but what happens when everyone starts sending them to the next house over? No one cares enough to help, then we are left with poor travelers on the streets of a city, it shows bad light on them. Or what if no one in the city/community can help them, what if it is a very poor community, then what? I know it is rare, but it could happen, then what does that community who has to adopt this traveler for the night do, when it has to feed yet another mouth that it cannot?